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Karma System adjusted


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NewsMaster
9/3/2007 3:11:29 PM


Status: Commander in Chief
Karma System adjusted

Some of you might have noticed that we have we have changed our karma system at past weekend.

To sum up: Voting scale did not change, but karma (voting power) system got more sensitive.

Previously it used to look at the total deviation of votes from each user and it it was large enough the karma would be adjusted some points.

Now, we made karma sensitive to deviation from average vote of each particular entry, rather than the total deviation. The higher the difference the higher the karma change.

Karma gains and losses can be as high as all karma a user has, but it's harder to gain karma than to lose it. However karma can be gained quite fast with voting in the next contest too.

Example:
A vote of 7 can be a bad vote for the entry which averaged about 4.5, and a great vote for the entry which averaged 6.5

A vote of 4 can be a great vote for the entry which averaged 4.5 and a bad vote for the entry which averaged 6.5.

So we can't say that 4 is always a bad vote, and 7 is always good, until we see which entries received this vote, which is exactly what system does now.

This comment was edited by NewsMaster at 9/3/2007 3:15:58 PM.
Comments: 99153
Contest Entries: 14
Out of my mind. Back in five minutes.
Keb
Republicans
9/3/2007 4:29:17 PM


Status: Commander in Chief
I know the old system use to whack karma for 1 and 2 votes. This made it pretty easy to vote but also made it easy to sidestep the voting scale. The new system looks like a contest within a contest. What I mean is, it is a guessing game. You are not rating an image but what everyone else thinks an image is worth. What I mean is, some voters look at the source image and rate that. They may not look at the amount of work that was put into an image and just over rate it on that only. (OOOH look, it's shiny...7) Believe it or not, a lot of newer members do vote only on the source, not the actual work. They miss textures, lighting issues, sharpness issues, color matching etc. Hopefully people will truly rate the images from now on but I think they will just find a weakness in the voting process and continue to vote the way they always have. It has just become harder to keep 175 karma and harder to build it back up. Honest voting can slash your karma as much as strategic voting can. It is too bad the karma bot couldn't think for us by rating each image to the voting scale instead of relying on an average score after the voting is over.

All in all I think it is a good change. Hopefully, more members will be aware of the voting scale and vote accordingly. Just remember there are now no 1-3 votes & 8-10 votes unless you do not value your karma.



RATING ENTRIES
Using the available scale of 1 - 10 (one being the lowest and 10 being the highest):

1. Before you rate any entry a 1, you should really flag it and not waste time voting it as a 1. If it's so bad as to deserve a 1, it shouldn't be on Freaking News. We don't need to list examples. You'll know them when you see them.
2. Any entry that is horrible. It should also be flagged.

EXAMPLE: Photoshop - Brutal blending and jagged layer edges.

3. An entry that is below average. Definitely needs that extra hour of work or thought. Easy things have been ignored.
4. An entry that could have been good, but is missing that extra 15 minutes of work or thought behind it.
5. It's average. Not great, not bad.
6. It's better than average.
7. It's much better than average. Great idea and execution.
8. Terrific idea and terrific execution makes this entry more than "just being great".
9. This is almost perfect and looks like professionally done image you'd see in magazines and media.
10. This is professionally done and is PERFECT in every possible way. There is not a single flaw in the image and the idea behind it is brilliant. This is one of the most amazing entries I have ever seen on the site.



[Edited by User on 9/7/2007 12:42:49 PM]
Comments: 2809
Contest Entries: 593
It is better to eat beans in peace than cake in fear.

c00per
Independents
9/3/2007 10:52:57 PM


Status: Joe Taxpayer
I don't know if this would be something to consider but would it better for all jury and admin members to look at all of the entries after the submission time has expired and set a minimum and maximum for the voting scale as it applies to that particular contest, based on what they have collectively agreed upon in private.

Example: 20 entries are submitted. All jurors and admins look at each entry and decided that there is no entry worthy of a vote less than 5 but that no entry is worthy of a vote higher than 8. So the scale for that contest is set at 5-8. Any member who casts a vote outside this scale for this particular contest gets wacked on the karma scale. Any jury or admin member who has an entry submitted to the contest would be excluded from setting the min/max voting scale for that particular contest.

At least this way, the broader voting scale would be based on the views and (hopefully) the skills of the jurors and would not be based on a collective average of such a narrow frame. It would allow for such things as Keb mentioned: textures, lighting issues, sharpness issues, color matching etc., which are obvious to jurors (again, hopefully) but may be overlooked by others in their voting preference. Afterall, those are the issues which voters should be basing their critiques on .. and their votes.

But, then again, it is all just for fun isn't it.
Comments: 625
Contest Entries: 60
I chop stuff.

mashby
Republicans
9/3/2007 11:11:39 PM
Status: Commander in Chief
Voting according to the voting scale (available on every entry) is the best bet. I'm not sure one should vote based on what they think everyone else would vote, unless everyone else is voting based on the same voting scale. Just use the scale and you should be fine if I read the new rules correctly.
Comments: 6163
Contest Entries: 784
I wish that I knew what I know now when I was younger.I wish that I knew what I know now when I was stronger.

Keb
Republicans
9/4/2007 12:19:50 AM


Status: Commander in Chief

On 9/3/2007 11:11:39 PM, mashby said:
Voting according to the voting scale (available on every entry) is the best bet. I'm not sure one should vote based on what they think everyone else would vote, unless everyone else is voting based on the same voting scale. Just use the scale and you should be fine if I read the new rules correctly.



Oh I agree with that 100%. My only objection is few people follow them. They mainly vote on source quality. If it is a nice source it gets higher votes no matter where it fits in on the voting scale. An image that has a lower quality source can be a 7 or 8 if the image is chopped with matching elements, correct color matching techniques and a good idea, but it won't be. But a higher resolution image with a mediocre idea, below average masking or poor sharpness matching properties will always score higher. Now, how can that be resolved?

It is still a guessing game. My idea of an above average image and yours may not even be in the same solar system.
This is the biggest problem for me is:
7. It's much better than average. Great idea and execution.
The difference between above average and much better than average is only something I can see. I also think a lot of people judge entries in the contest against each other entry in the contest. You know like, "This is my favorite entry in this contest so I will give it my highest vote. Now I will judge all the other entries in this contest to the one I like best."

You are right, mashby. We have a voting scale. Getting people to use it is another matter. Maybe this new system will accomplish just that.
Comments: 2809
Contest Entries: 593
It is better to eat beans in peace than cake in fear.

mashby
Republicans
9/4/2007 9:30:34 PM
Status: Commander in Chief
Well, I think some members may feel threatened or confused by the new system. It would certainly appear to be safe to vote in the 4-6 range, or better yet, not at all. Perhaps shedding some light on the spread would assuage any fears. I'll stick by my "vote according to the scale", but with only a few voters, that can certainly be dangerous.
Comments: 6163
Contest Entries: 784
I wish that I knew what I know now when I was younger.I wish that I knew what I know now when I was stronger.

leifp
Independents
9/4/2007 9:48:26 PM
Status: Government Cheese
Just my two cents worth...

I have never really understood why you should be able to vote on competitions that you have entered into yourself...

Would it be an option to create an additional points system where if you vote fairly on a competition you have not entered you get, lets say, 2 points. It then costs you 1 of these points to enter a competition.

Therefore it is in everyones best interest to keep their points in the positive by voting on competitions that they have not entered.

Also, If someone votes on a competition, then decides that they want to enter it, all their votes cast up to them entering are removed, so there is no possibility of fixing the other votes to favour yours.

The only problem with this will be for people that enter basically every competition that is run... They will have no chance to accrue points by voting on the competitions they don't enter, as they enter them all... If that makes sense. Maybe tied into winning the competitions are also bonus points to be used for entering competitions...?!? Just thinking out loud.
Comments: 41
Contest Entries: 17

mashby
Republicans
9/4/2007 10:12:46 PM
Status: Commander in Chief
By rewarding NOT voting in a contest, you are suggesting that those who do vote in a contest they enter are voting others down (which is plausible). But if they have any integrity at all (even a smudge), they will vote each entry on its own merit and according to the voting scale.
Comments: 6163
Contest Entries: 784
I wish that I knew what I know now when I was younger.I wish that I knew what I know now when I was stronger.

leifp
Independents
9/5/2007 12:42:11 AM
Status: Government Cheese
I am not saying that FN should reward NOT voting in a contest, I am suggesting that you get rewarded by voting fairly in contests that you have not entered. In this situation the voting integrity in any contest cannot be questioned.
Comments: 41
Contest Entries: 17

mashby
Republicans
9/5/2007 7:33:59 AM
Status: Commander in Chief
Comments: 6163
Contest Entries: 784
I wish that I knew what I know now when I was younger.I wish that I knew what I know now when I was stronger.

Valefar
Independents
9/5/2007 8:31:40 PM
Status: City Council Representative
So, you vote--as recommended--by the 1-10 voting scale, but then it's a crapshoot whether your vote correlates to how everyone else voted after the contest ends. Thus, your "karma" depends not on the 1-10 scale; it depends on your ESP-- your psychic powers--in anticipating how everyone else voted.

[Edited by User on 9/5/2007 8:31:21 PM]
Comments: 727
Contest Entries: 46
So, what?

mashby
Republicans
9/5/2007 8:58:28 PM
Status: Commander in Chief
OK, screw all you guys, I'm voting everything an 11 from here on out.
Comments: 6163
Contest Entries: 784
I wish that I knew what I know now when I was younger.I wish that I knew what I know now when I was stronger.

JannaR
Independents
9/5/2007 9:03:17 PM


Status: Commander in Chief
....and a half
Comments: 4198
Contest Entries: 369
“I’ve got plenty of common sense…. I just choose to ignore it.”- Calvin and Hobbes.

babaloo
Independents
9/5/2007 11:06:02 PM


Status: Commander in Chief
After much arm twisting I finally got Newsy to explain the new System to me.
Comments: 891
Contest Entries: 653

Kiko
Democrats
9/5/2007 11:39:09 PM


Status: Student Council
Exactly, Valefar. Powers of clairvoyance and a crystal ball help too.

Comments: 433
Contest Entries: 0
"Res ipsa loquitor," which means "The thing speaks for itself."

mashby
Republicans
9/5/2007 11:45:08 PM
Status: Commander in Chief
Tf anyone has any integrity at all (even a smudge), they will vote each entry on its own merit and according to the voting scale.
Comments: 6163
Contest Entries: 784
I wish that I knew what I know now when I was younger.I wish that I knew what I know now when I was stronger.

Quartarolo
Republicans
9/6/2007 7:53:45 AM


Status: Teacher's Pet
Friends

I believe that the folks has is that be attentive people who votes for strategy, voting times in just 3 image in the whole challenge or giving a note 3 to the best challenge image
It has people who really votes to win
Do not come talk me that it voted because the image deserves a 3 or 4 is clear to everybody who voted low in the great entered to be able to win
I do not manage to understand because it have people who votes in the image giving only a vote in the worse challenge image
It has 13 entered that votes in the 13 come in
Because then it votes in 11
Karma system could have improved
But what has to improve are people who give so different votes from other and does not have any punishment
I am sad in know that it less and less have people voting
It is not because karma system this bad
And that people are not being just with friends' image
As can an entrance that was in first with A+ with 8 votes
It suddenly goes to C with 9 vote
With the new system hope that it is punished people who does not vote in all image or vote in high notes in the image that are among last

If you are to vote votes in all image with just notes respecting friends' image


Sorry the comment
And by the the translation
Because you know that I am Brazilian

I hope that I understand me in that is my opinion

Comments: 162
Contest Entries: 47

Keb
Republicans
9/6/2007 8:24:23 AM


Status: Commander in Chief
We are all resistant to change it seem. I know I am. I think that is our nature. We get too comfy doing things the same way all the time. It is my opinion that this change to the voting system and how vote power is calculated is one of the best changes to come down the pike at FN since the start up of the apprentice contests. Give it some time and watch the vote history to see what is happening. You shouldn't be afraid to vote because of losing karma. Fair voting will reward you by keeping your karma (if you have any) and make it go up fast (if you don't have any). Changes aren't always a bad thing.
Comments: 2809
Contest Entries: 593
It is better to eat beans in peace than cake in fear.

TypeO
Republicans
9/8/2007 10:37:40 PM


Status: Wal Mart Greeter
I haven't been here in quite a while - block'd from work - but after over 3 years at worth, I can state emphatically the karma system/voting scale works. It's not esp at all.
If everyone is voting on the image itself according to the voting scale, it won't matter what you think OTHERS are voting.
Hallelujah and pass the wacom. lolo
Comments: 35
Contest Entries: 8
Timmy: Are you thinking what I'm thinking? Cosmo: Uhhh, don't cook bacon with your shirt off?


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