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JimShorts
9/17/2015 5:25:30 PM


Status: Commander in Chief
Bad Voting

I've been out for quite some time and as I come back into the war zone, my voting record has been terrible. So I'm sorry if I appear to be voting anybody's work poorly. I mean that sincerely.
Comments: 2042
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NewsMaster
Independents
9/18/2015 12:01:15 AM


Status: Commander in Chief
Welcome back, and I am sure your voting record will improve!
Comments: 99153
Contest Entries: 14
Out of my mind. Back in five minutes.

Hitspinner
Independents
10/1/2015 6:32:03 PM


Status: Commander in Chief

On 9/17/2015 5:25:30 PM, JimShorts said:
I've been out for quite some time and as I come back into the war zone, my voting record has been terrible. So I'm sorry if I appear to be voting anybody's work poorly. I mean that sincerely.



It's been going around. Take 2 Tylenol and call me in the morning TY


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Hitspinner the Wise

Gummy
Republicans
10/3/2015 7:46:40 AM


Status: Commander in Chief
And just remember:
Vote high and vote often.
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Hitspinner
Independents
10/3/2015 11:31:18 AM


Status: Commander in Chief

On 10/3/2015 7:46:40 AM, Gummy said:
And just remember:
Vote high and vote often.



LOL.I do try... I am a bit stunned at the disregard for voting technical merit of late. It's like people that should know better just stopped looking close. I have seen it happen before here and it is one of those there phee nom enemas or something. Or it is people trying to judge on cell phones rather than large screen monitors?

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Hitspinner the Wise

Gummy
Republicans
10/3/2015 2:04:20 PM


Status: Commander in Chief

Or it is people trying to judge on cell phones rather than large screen monitors?


I've been saying that for a while now. My daughter said, "Pop, Nobody uses desk tops anymore, everything is on a smarty phones now"
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Hitspinner
Independents
10/3/2015 2:39:37 PM


Status: Commander in Chief

On 10/3/2015 2:04:20 PM, Gummy said:

Or it is people trying to judge on cell phones rather than large screen monitors?


I've been saying that for a while now. My daughter said, "Pop, Nobody uses desk tops anymore, everything is on a smarty phones now"



Yep it is an educated observation. Reducing even the worst chop will make it look good. That was an old trick we used back in advertising. Artists worked 3 to 4 times larger than the printed illustrations were going to be and when they were reduced they really snapped! It actually comes down to composition. Big images are easier to catch the eye on a tiny phone and images filled with paste jobs look like there was a lot of time put in when reduced even though they look cluttered. When it gets to where a 10 hour A+++ chop gets beat by a pretty simple 1 hour paste up, there is something goofy. There is not much that can be done about it. Just the way chopping is evolving I guess? So, spend less time, get the same votes, okay with me. In a way it is good as it seems to be making room for everybody.


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Hitspinner the Wise

IcyAllEyeCan
Independents
10/4/2015 5:39:28 AM


Status: Commander in Chief

When it gets to where a 10 hour A+++ chop gets beat by a pretty simple 1 hour paste up, there is something goofy. There is not much that can be done about it. Just the way chopping is evolving I guess? So, spend less time, get the same votes, okay with me. In a way it is good as it seems to be making room for everybody.






I've felt this a lot lately. I think sometimes recognized style fills in the gaps, or boosts something up a vote on the old scale.
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~Icyhttp://phorho.blogspot.com

Hitspinner
Independents
10/5/2015 2:11:01 PM


Status: Commander in Chief

On 10/4/2015 5:39:28 AM, IcyAllEyeCan said:

When it gets to where a 10 hour A+++ chop gets beat by a pretty simple 1 hour paste up, there is something goofy. There is not much that can be done about it. Just the way chopping is evolving I guess? So, spend less time, get the same votes, okay with me. In a way it is good as it seems to be making room for everybody.






I've felt this a lot lately. I think sometimes recognized style fills in the gaps, or boosts something up a vote on the old scale.



All of the above most likely.
If you want to change the same old ... (all the basic complaints), maybe consider becoming an admin or judge, Icy.
I really should have, I already put in about as many hours or maybe more as I would as an Admin. But the main reason I did not do that is I am a flake. The truth is out! A responsible schedule is dang near impossible for me to keep. I didn't think it would be fair to anyone.
So I just carp with no real right to do so other than I earned some atta-boys. I was goofing around the other night and averaged up my hours, playing here. I've contributed perhaps 5,000 hours + of art to the site over the years. That earns me a few "cranky" posts postings. But is doesn't earn any brownie points with Kellie, Mac or Newsey. They like a happy ship. Good thing too
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Hitspinner the Wise

Evirio
Independents
10/6/2015 12:27:10 AM


Status: Commander in Chief
I've been voting almost everyday for a year now, and came back to chop a bit lately... And what I see about "bad" votings is a bit different.

There's not enough people voting. An average of 12 people voting each contest is low, too low. When I began in 2011 at FN, there were about 30-40 voters, the competition was pretty hard. And by this time, when your chop was worth a 5, he was. Two years later, a 5 chop became a 6 chop. No it's becoming slightly a 7. When will it stop ?

So, no, don't vote too high. Or one day we're going to give 10 to everybody as if we were in kindergarten.

There are always contestants who enters, but choose not to vote.
That's freedom. But not a good idea. Don't complain about voters if you choose not to vote.

Because Gummy, Icy & Hitsy, you're all good at that .
If you were voting more often, you would know, as a part of the audience, what you're expected to do. Cause nevertheless you're artists and free to do (almost) what you want...
To please your audience, you've gotta know what it wants.
I'm not telling any secrets here.

For example, I hated big heads when I started here. But that's a part of what the audience wants. So that's something I learned to give.

And yeah, Hits, I saw a few of your chops recently, that weren't rated the way they should have...
It happens to all of us, all I can say is
"Show more & better, show us Hitspinner !"



[Edited by User on 10/6/2015 9:25:51 AM]
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Hitspinner
Independents
10/6/2015 4:16:26 PM


Status: Commander in Chief


I agree, more voters are necessary. If I don't vote there are several considerations: Too busy, I simply forget, tactical reasons, and a number of others. Sometimes I don't vote due to apathy even. Odds are I am going to give you a better vote than you give me because I do try hard to follow the guidelines. I've skewered myself more times than not by voting honest. When I do vote I round up higher on obvious nubile young things or old members that are struggling. And sometimes I don't vote when I have to be far too brutally honest. That is a bit of a bittersweet trait, I realize.Anyway, I have a respectable vote history and generally have one of the highest if not the highest vote averages in the contest I vote in. I don't give away 10s hardly ever. 9s I give only when I think the chop is way above exceptional, 8s average two or three a contest because a few choppers chop at that level A+++ regularly. 7s give to the bulk of the chops because they did the work pretty well and mad clear extra efforts, 6s go to normal chops that show some extra effort. 5's go to basic swaps, standard fare, no extra tricks attempted, 4s go to chops that need those extra 15 mins. Frankly, anything below a 6 doesn't really belong in the shark tank. But since we don't seem to have a novice tank anymore choppers of all skills a competing in the same mix. THAT changes the entire voting dynamic in my opinion. Though I do not know if this is true or not, it may also cause trepidation in novice players that might back off entering the advanced and move on or give up for fear of being embarrassed. It is complicated. If I complain there is usually pretty good reason to do so. I may not be the proverbial canary in the coalmine but I do talk to you guys in emails, and Skype and phone and such and I really do no more than echo similar observations and sentiments of other players. It is you guys that read these things that have to ask yourselves am I part of the problem or the solution. Judging by you welcome response you have done exactly what anyone would ask a member to do, and that is think it through. You don't have to share the same viewpoint just care. Thanks man

[Edited by User on 10/6/2015 10:40:07 PM]
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Hitspinner the Wise

Gummy
Republicans
10/6/2015 6:26:08 PM


Status: Commander in Chief

On 10/6/2015 12:27:10 AM, Evirio said:

Because Gummy, Icy & Hitsy, you're all good at that .

[Edited by User on 10/6/2015 9:25:51 AM]



Nope,, I don't vote and no I don't complain. I could care less where my chops finish. I liked it just fine when Newsy's vote was just about the only vote. He knows good stuff from bad.

Sure I get caught up in the completive nature of the game when I see one of my chops in range. Last week I sat in first place for almost all day and in the last 20 seconds dropped to second. Sure I had a thing or two to say about that, but not in open forum, but I didn't like getting so caught up in the score that it made me say anything to my 4 walls.

And my comment about "Vote high and vote often." was made in jest.
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IcyAllEyeCan
Independents
10/6/2015 7:49:59 PM


Status: Commander in Chief
When I started here I voted every single time. I was proud of my zero under "no votes" -- but my karma would not budge. I was told "you'll figure it out" -- what I figured out was there was cheating going on. Gotta say it because here we just finished a contest with 61 entries and practically up to #20 they're by one artist. THAT. IS. NOT. POSSIBLE. Flat out. Can't happen with honest voting and even with 9 voters. And I did vote. And I was honest. A lot of the chops were not well done, even with such a simple task. there was flat surfacing, messiness, boring work. Not every chop is good! Why has this site slid to 6 being a basic low score? Why? On the other major site, a 5 is completely acceptable, a 4 doesn't cause your karma to plummet. But go look at my scoring. I saw a lot of 5s, which isn't insulting on a scale of 1-10, but on this site it knocked my karma down to 1. And I only had 34, despite having maintained high karma at the other site for years with consistent voting.

Yeah, I gave up voting in the main here because I lost karma every time. If I LIED and gave standard chops 6s or 7s, then I'd get some karma. But it irked me to lie. No, just because I recognize the chopper because I know what he does and how he does it and I've seen him win before doesn't mean he should get that boost. If I have to not vote at all to not give him that advantage, then so be it.

Now with this contest, the winner's chops all got the full 8 votes. Some of mine only got 5 votes. So how is this fair?

I believe there is cheating going on. I wish, with all the artist in me, that there wasn't. That people didn't need to feed their egos above their honesty. Maybe it's for the money, as little as it is, it's more than anywhere else and very generous of Newsy and the site to pay at all. We should be doing this for the fun, the exercise of our creativity, to learn well, those are my reasons. But I cannot ignore being cheated, even if I don't need to win, I'm angry on behalf of my own work when it's dismissed for reasons other than its own merit.
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~Icyhttp://phorho.blogspot.com

Hitspinner
Independents
10/6/2015 11:36:28 PM


Status: Commander in Chief
Cheating is pretty harsh, but I understand.
I trust the judges to catch the cheaters. They handle stuff behind lines that we never even see. But they can't do a single thing about favoritism. People like what they like and favor whom they will. If we happen to be productive and good enough to develop a fan base, that is way cool! It means we are doing our job. Voting is such a crapshoot. It gets stupid when people ignore or don't obey the voting guidelines. Look back to when the site started. 4,5s and 6s worked accurately as fair votes because the choppers were pretty new at it. Once in a while someone would excel and soak up the higher votes. As time went on, more and more choppers got better and better and we saw some chopping giants emerge and that changed the entire voting paradigm. As the quality got higher so rose the voting averages. So FN actually evolved in a predictable way and stayed true to the voting guidelines better than Worth. I see regular, stellar chops over there that are no less than 9+, catch 6s and 7s and 8s. In my opinion the voting there is a bit insulting and rigid. But they do seem to pull in the cream. Now what has happened here is many of our A+++ artists left for other adventures. One would think that the vote average would come down in their absense but there are still a number of super chops entered, maybe just enough to keep everyone's standards at a constant? I dunno. Maybe that is it. But I do see clear evidence lately of an effort to lower the average. I was not sure whom(s) was doing it but the average on my chops has dropped considerably, So has Splats, Docs and others to name a few. I don't see trying to force the average down or up as an ethical move. But I don't see it as cheating, either because everyone is affected equally. If the guidelines are understood and followed the checks and balances work themselves out. When they are not we see discontent and talent gets fed up and walks. It is supposed to be a fun place, if people are not having fun, we have to fix that. As far as the last contest goes, these things are generally a lot of fun if everyone gets into the swap-fest spirit. Multiple chops are not my thing as I focus on quality not quantity. And there are speed choppers that wait all year for this sort of contest...why steal their thunder even if the chop Gods did favor me.
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IcyAllEyeCan
Independents
10/7/2015 12:54:36 AM


Status: Commander in Chief
I'm not in the in crowd, Hits, so I'm only vaguely aware of who is a judge here. From this thread and others, I've picked up that Kellie and Mac are judges -- and I trust them implicitly re their voting. But what can they do it someone knows whose chop is whose and votes them high and votes others lower? I mean, really? What can they do? How could they know, how could they prove it, I can't think of any way. I just look at results such as this last contest and I know there's something rotten. It's surely not what you posit: getting to know someone style and liking it and giving it high votes. 1. this was a simple swap contest and the results were very generic for style. I saw some styles that made it clear they were the same party, but not who. BUT I'm not that in the know. Could be but with only 9 voters? And the truth TO ME is that there are chops that just are superior to others. But they are not the winners. Mine are NOT in that bunch. I did not expect to win or even place after seeing the entries. It would have been a fluke or by reason of choosing the right celebrity.

Also, I think you're being generous to talk of the community here as thought we're in a bubble. There have been different groups passing through - you yourself were here long ago, left, came back. Even me, only here a few years, can recall several really good choppers who are gone. But even considering them, this is not a percentage of the world at large of Photoshopping. By a mile. So saying, suggesting that we're some class of '15 that as Freshmen used to do 4-6 vote-worthy chops and are now doing 7-9 vote-worthy chops is unsupportable. Entirely different people who, IMO are still doing 4-9 vote-worthy chops as they ever were. On every site I see people who do 1-10 chops and the world loves them with similar raves regardless of any guidelines.

I wish people did read the guidelines. Because that's how I vote. That's why I am so upset now. I won't argue with something winning if it's just style that I don't like; as long as it has skill that explains why anyone could consider it better. But obviously flawed chop after chop AHEAD of some excellent work? That's not just an insult to me but to everyone.

I've said too many times that something is wrong with the voting here, I've been shamed into staying silent before, a lot of "there, there, you just don't understand" has been laid in my path. I DO understand. I don't complain publicly easily at all. I'm nervous as anything to be so blatant about this.

But all this dumbs down our efforts. New potential artists coming here, why would they take it seriously if they look through the contests? Fair, impartial voting is the only lure to serious artists. I know there are some who win nearly every time who probably just think "shut up" to all this. But they'll be saying "shut up" to an empty room if the trend continues. As someone else noted, there used to be double digit voting every time. Now nine? There used to be so many entries. Now, how many? Is that a way to win? Is that even fun?
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~Icyhttp://phorho.blogspot.com

Hitspinner
Independents
10/7/2015 1:56:10 AM


Status: Commander in Chief
I understand, Icy. Yet I do think of FN as extended family and to some degree the term bubble sort of works.
You know what would be helpful, is a survey of non active members asking why their participation dropped off. We can speculate all day but a little social science might cut out 90% of the mystery and expose whether people felt there was unfair voting going on. There will be lots of reasons but as with all surveys they expose the common thread... when designed correctly.

Questions might be something like : What about FN do you enjoy? - What about FN do you dislike? What would inspire you to come back and chop at FN? - Do you have any goals connected to chopping at FN that you had trouble with? - How can we help you with that?

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Hitspinner the Wise

Evirio
Independents
10/7/2015 3:41:29 AM


Status: Commander in Chief
So, Icy, you're pretty honest when you say you're not in the crowd here. Otherwise, you'd know that some choppers like me, lucianomorelli, Hohouse (a little less now), and a long time ago Mundo, were known for flooding that kind of contest. And almost every contest in fact, with every sort and quality of chops.

Why is that ? Because we chop for pleasure. We're machines. When we start, we can't stop so easily.

I also can work two days on a pic when it's worth.

But don't call me a cheater because I can swap face quick and good. If you think 60 chops is a lot, check this contest :

http://www.freakingnews.com/Celebrity-Facelift-Pictures--3216.asp

Mundo and I (and 1-2 others) were flooding for a result of 285 images. 22 people did vote. This was big.

Because when I take part to those face swap contest, I'm not just doing it for me, but for FN. Doing a lot of fresh silly faces is a way to attract new curious people to the site.

Then, one other, little thing. You CAN think some pics were better that the ones that won. It happens to me all the time. It doesn't mean that's the way it works, and it doesn't mean the winner has cheated. It means your tastes are differents, you see or care for some technical issues others don't, etc.

Then, I read your comment on Paul's pic :

"My favorite of MINE is one with Rihanna with her tongue out - I see you went the same route. This should have taken Gold, but cheaters will cheat. Yes, I said it. No way the top however may should be one person's work. I believe it when it's yours, because your work is quality. I don't believe it in this case. So in my head, you got the Silver, but should have taken the Gold."

You really insult me. Things are different now.

Then... well, forget how kind I've been just above, taking you by the hand. Let's give you your money back.

How can you judge any work when you've been an average chopper for years, thinking you're the best ?
You're stuck at the level I had years ago, and I consider me as a novice.
Since you got here, you can't stop complaining about bad voting and cheating...
How deep can you be a pain in the ass exactly?
Your work, like your votes, reflects your tastes.
Poor, close to nothingness. That's all. Stop judging others on that scale, and open your mind.

Let's take a lil example, to illustrate. You say, in your comment (to Paul), that your favorite pic is the one with Rihanna and here tongues out (yours in fact)...
Well, you insult him too, for starters, talking about your pic as your favourite under his one.

Then, the pic. Good idea, but that's all.

- Poor quality, I see big pixels and blurry zone, the pic is far
from being neat and clean.
- You blured the background... good thinking. But masked it so
bad I still see it above her shoulder.
- When you do a face swap contest, you look for faces, not for
bodies. In that case, you'd have to focus, zoom on the face
and forget the dress... And then enhance the quality of your
source with denoise, highpass,... or find a better source.

Which leads to a score of 5-6 for this picture, because you sure could have worked at least 15 min on it.

See ? No one cheated, you got 5.875.

Making so big mistakes, how are you even able to say what's good or not ? Because you like it or not ? Because it's your favourite ? Only cheaters vote for who/what they like, and not for the quality of the work.
Try to keep it shut, dude.

In the real world, you would'nt say anything like that.
I'm from the real world.
Stop being a stupid internet hater who thinks he can say anything hurting just because he likes it. That's retarded.

You don't understand why Paul's monkey didn't win ?
That's something I explained, too...
The audience. Knowing what the audience wants.
Paul is good for big heads and news (I make a caricature of a caricature...) that's the way he has found after years of chopping here.

But in a contest where rules say you can chop humans or animals... Humans always win. I've done (and won) enough of these to know.

Paul's monkey and luciano's evil dog were pretty good chops.
For me, the evil dog could have been in the top 3.

But the audience and voters seek naturally humans in face swap contest, so animals will be downgraded. Animals and 10 hours chop aren't good ideas for these ones. They're disturbing. You don't want to see them, in fact.

Because your confort, your intern rating scale is disturbed by those chops. It's like comparing a carott, a burger and a chair.
It's what you're supposed to do in the freak show, but not in a face swap. So you have two choices : give'm a little more or a little less points than the rest. That's unconscious. That's about creating a meme. And a meme is repetitive, stupid, and floods google (reason why I don't make one chop, but a lot.)

That's all. Waiting to accept your apologies.
Comments: 1673
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macwithfries
Independents
10/7/2015 4:13:31 AM


Status: Commander in Chief
Ya know guys, this is starting to get a little bit silly.

In big contests such as the last one, quite often there will be one or two choppers who do a lot of entries.....and sometimes they are the ones who "have the knack" of doing chops that revolve around "said theme" pretty well.

That was an extremely hard contest to vote on, as there were a stack of entries that were of a very similar standard. (I voted higher for any chops that I thought were technically well done.)

But I can tell you right now that NOBODY cheated....

There might have been some more diversity in the voting if more people voted,(especially people not actually entered) but apart from that, the voting reflected people's personal opinion I would say, and had nothing to do with anyone knowing who's done what. (and I can't remotely see how "anyone" could tell who's chops were who's in that contest....because they were all very similar)

By the way, we aren't just jurors or admins back here who just vote then take a nap.....we should probably be called the "FN FBI".....because we "know" when people are trying to cheat (and catch them very early on when they do...)

Because "we too" used to enter contests, and know that there's nothing worse than an unfair playing field, so we bust our guts making sure it is. We've been doing it for over ten years ...there isn't anything we haven't seen, and we have developed "skills and tools" for sniffing out the dodgy people.

The way Vlad's Karma system works also prevents anyone's dodgy votes from affecting a chops score.....

I could go on.....but please don't make personal attacks directed at other choppers....there were no cheaters in the last contest......ok.


[Edited by User on 10/7/2015 4:15:18 AM]
Comments: 5844
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IcyAllEyeCan
Independents
10/7/2015 4:30:07 AM


Status: Commander in Chief
I appreciate your comments, Mac. I take your word for it and thank you and the other jurors and admins for your diligence.
Comments: 1700
Contest Entries: 608
~Icyhttp://phorho.blogspot.com

Gummy
Republicans
10/7/2015 7:03:15 AM


Status: Commander in Chief
I would like to make one last comment, (unless someone shoots at my feet again) The discussion of this site scoring chops a bit higher than other sites is one of the nice things about this site. It's not so doggy and nit picky. It is much better for ones "Feel Good" to get a high score than to get 2s for a chop you spent a week on. (that's why I left from over there) But for me I love the comments more over the score. Some joking around in the comment box means a lot more than a 7. It make you want to come back. Some general advice is good too. but not to the point of slamming the chop so as to make your chop look better. (that has almost stopped now) And the ever popular "Well Tried" was one of the biggest insults one could throw out here. I haven't seen that one in a while. For me the highest praise for a chop is the simple "WOW". (a "Yikes" is good too). Some are not so willing to comment on a chop until the voting is over for fear of influencing the outcome. I understand that I guess but ,,, lighten up and have some fun cut up a bit more and we will all have a lot more fun. I think of us as a band at a bar. we are the entertainment, sure it is a competition site but we shouldn't be so caught up in the score that we forget to have fun. The one chopper here that I admire the absolute most is Crafty. Been here for a long time scores about the same place all the time and NEVER complains. not one word. And comes right back tomorrow for the next contest. Because for Crafty, chopping is fun.
Comments: 4582
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Hitspinner
Independents
10/7/2015 1:08:53 PM


Status: Commander in Chief

On 10/7/2015 7:03:15 AM, Gummy said:
I would like to make one last comment, (unless someone shoots at my feet again) The discussion of this site scoring chops a bit higher than other sites is one of the nice things about this site. It's not so doggy and nit picky. It is much better for ones "Feel Good" to get a high score than to get 2s for a chop you spent a week on. (that's why I left from over there) But for me I love the comments more over the score. Some joking around in the comment box means a lot more than a 7. It make you want to come back. Some general advice is good too. but not to the point of slamming the chop so as to make your chop look better. (that has almost stopped now) And the ever popular "Well Tried" was one of the biggest insults one could throw out here. I haven't seen that one in a while. For me the highest praise for a chop is the simple "WOW". (a "Yikes" is good too). Some are not so willing to comment on a chop until the voting is over for fear of influencing the outcome. I understand that I guess but ,,, lighten up and have some fun cut up a bit more and we will all have a lot more fun. I think of us as a band at a bar. we are the entertainment, sure it is a competition site but we shouldn't be so caught up in the score that we forget to have fun. The one chopper here that I admire the absolute most is Crafty. Been here for a long time scores about the same place all the time and NEVER complains. not one word. And comes right back tomorrow for the next contest. Because for Crafty, chopping is fun.



Gummy you are truly a brother from another mother. Well said and I agree, Crafty rocks. And Mac... U B wise as always. HoHouse and I are cantankerous old coots that would complain even if you hung us with a new rope. My only stickler is ever having to remind anyone to follow the guidelines. Artists are screued over so much in the real world that it is just nice to have a sacred place where we are treated fairly, especially by each other. FN is such a place but we sometimes have oopsies. So I natter the low-ballers, somebody has to shame them But everyone has heard that record, sorry. Cheating? I am not sure how to even go about that and like Mac said, and I before that, Admins are doing their thing behind the curtain weeding out stuff we never even knew or heard about. So, cheating is not really on my bi-tch list. Attendance is. I thrive on competition that can kick my ass because it motivates me to dig a little deeper. So the more the merrier. The site seems to run better, flow better when we have more members showing up. I am curious as to where and why some of my heroes vanished. It would be nice to see them return as well as new blood in the shop. A person can't have too many friends.
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