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kennyb
Independents
3/17/2012 12:33:33 AM


Status: Wal Mart Greeter
disasterman - I disagree too...unless you can read everyone's mind your Karma goes down...the only way to effectively eliminate the up and down on Karma is to not vote extremes in either direction. You give someone a one or two it goes down...give someone a ten and it goes down...this is political correctness in voting...no one is a loser and no one is a winner...REALLY?

We should all vote our conscience and base or vote on the artists ability to interpret the contest rules/assignment and do something creative or not and the final execution of their idea.

In life not everyone wins. Should be tell people that their idea stinks (probably not) but should we weight down the great ideas because we are afraid our karma will get messed up for voting a ten, when that is what the piece deserves.

And how is "Karma" as we so call it good and goes up for basically lying, and we reward for that? Real Karma is about making the right decisions, being a good person doing "good"...while I agree that it might not be nice to tell someone that their idea is no good...at the same time it is a lie to give someone an seven when they deserve a nine or a ten.
Comments: 74
Contest Entries: 11

AzureSky
Independents
3/17/2012 6:33:42 AM


Status: Commander in Chief

On 3/17/2012 12:33:33 AM, kennyb said:
disasterman - I disagree too...unless you can read everyone's mind your Karma goes down...the only way to effectively eliminate the up and down on Karma is to not vote extremes in either direction. You give someone a one or two it goes down...give someone a ten and it goes down...this is political correctness in voting...no one is a loser and no one is a winner...REALLY?

We should all vote our conscience and base or vote on the artists ability to interpret the contest rules/assignment and do something creative or not and the final execution of their idea.

In life not everyone wins. Should be tell people that their idea stinks (probably not) but should we weight down the great ideas because we are afraid our karma will get messed up for voting a ten, when that is what the piece deserves.

And how is "Karma" as we so call it good and goes up for basically lying, and we reward for that? Real Karma is about making the right decisions, being a good person doing "good"...while I agree that it might not be nice to tell someone that their idea is no good...at the same time it is a lie to give someone an seven when they deserve a nine or a ten.



I think you summed it up Kenny but I would rarely vote less than 5 now. It is when I vote higher I seem to lose Karma.

I can't figure out if all your votes have to be average, and you lose Karma for getting one wrong? Or if there is a percentage of "wrong" votes/guesses allowed?

Because of this anomaly I mostly only vote on contests I have entered, so as not to lose what little karma I have.

Comments: 12495
Contest Entries: 1352
Mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself, but talent instantly recognizes genius. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

FloridaGator
Republicans
3/17/2012 1:42:58 PM
Status: Wal Mart Greeter
I still want to see the mathematic equation used in determining karma gain/loss. If it is based on difference in average scores versus an individual's vote, there has to be some math to it.
Comments: 57
Contest Entries: 10

AzureSky
Independents
3/17/2012 2:37:54 PM


Status: Commander in Chief

On 3/17/2012 1:42:58 PM, FloridaGator said:
I still want to see the mathematic equation used in determining karma gain/loss. If it is based on difference in average scores versus an individual's vote, there has to be some math to it.



Newsmaster did say the karma is based on votes per entry and that if you vote 5 you have a range of 4,5 and 6. So if you vote 8 on a chop which covers 7,8,9 but the average was 5 you would lose karma.



Comments: 12495
Contest Entries: 1352
Mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself, but talent instantly recognizes genius. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

NewsMaster
Independents
3/17/2012 3:31:20 PM


Status: Commander in Chief

On 3/17/2012 1:42:58 PM, FloridaGator said:
I still want to see the mathematic equation used in determining karma gain/loss. If it is based on difference in average scores versus an individual's vote, there has to be some math to it.



The karma system works with each particular entry - it looks how your personal vote deviates from the average weighted vote of other voters for the same entry.

If you want to talk about the formula/rule, then here it is.
After the contest ends, each chop has its final weighted average score. Say the score is X.***, then the good range of votes which will gain you karma on this entry is:
X-1, X, X+1, X+2

An example: A chop that finished with the weighted average of 7.3 will gain your karma if you voted 6, 7, 8, or 9 on this chop.
If you voted outside of this range (that is, if you voted 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, or 9 on this chop) then you lose karma, and the amount of karma loss depends on how far you deviate from the good range.
E.g. you lose more karma if you vote 2 on this chop, than you do if you vote 5 on this chop (that averaged 7.3).

You karma losses and gains for all particular entries in the contest are added up and you have your total karma change for this contest.


So without looking at what votes were cast for what chops, there's no way to tell whether or not you are going to gain or lose karma.

A vote of 7 can be a bad vote for a chop that averages 9.5
and a vote of 4 can be a good vote for a chop that averages 4.5.
What matters is how your personal vote deviates from the average weighted vote of other voters for the same entry. Again, your karma losses and gains for all particular entries in the contest are added up and you have your total karma change for this contest.

karma system is more sensitive to the entries which finish in the top 4 (when contest ends). Meaning that if you vote badly for any of the top 4 entries, you will lose karma in this contest, even if even you vote nicely for the rest of the entries.

[Edited by User on 3/17/2012 3:29:07 PM]
Comments: 99153
Contest Entries: 14
Out of my mind. Back in five minutes.

AzureSky
Independents
3/17/2012 6:58:45 PM


Status: Commander in Chief
Well I thought I voted nicely in the Pi contest, particularly on the top 5. Obviously not, as I lost Karma yet again.

Makes me wonder why I bother. This system is far to complicated for me.

I find it all too worrying, so will desist for a while until I know more about how to vote.
Comments: 12495
Contest Entries: 1352
Mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself, but talent instantly recognizes genius. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

NewsMaster
Independents
3/17/2012 7:35:47 PM


Status: Commander in Chief

On 3/17/2012 6:58:45 PM, AzureSky said:
Well I thought I voted nicely in the Pi contest, particularly on the top 5. Obviously not, as I lost Karma yet again.

Makes me wonder why I bother. This system is far to complicated for me.

I find it all too worrying, so will desist for a while until I know more about how to vote.



I have just checked your voting and you had great votes on all entries, except one vote where you deviate hugely from the average.
This chop finished with a weighted average score of 5.3, but you gave it a 9. That's a huge vote difference. If you voted it a 7 or even 8, you would not lose karma.

[Edited by User on 3/17/2012 7:34:20 PM]
Comments: 99153
Contest Entries: 14
Out of my mind. Back in five minutes.

FloridaGator
Republicans
3/17/2012 8:15:11 PM
Status: Wal Mart Greeter
NewsMaster,
Thank you so much for explaining karma in such detail. I appreciate knowing the deviation range. I feel much more confident voting now.
Comments: 57
Contest Entries: 10

Laredog
Independents
3/17/2012 8:26:59 PM


Status: Speech Writer
I want to thank NewsMaster for the input, since I now have a better understanding on how the Karma system works. AND, I see how it IS important in some fashion. The example above is perfect. The ring was a joke, compared to other works, ONLY because it was all photo and a tiny add on chop wise. So basic to add a PI sumbol to a black center. In NO WAY a nine! All of us nubile young things need to remember.. we are not voting on a pretty picture here. I have taken more time to examine the chops at high res and trying my best to "guess" a good Average number for each. That may hurt the pros a little, because I doubt I'll EVER give out a 10.
My opinion: It is easier to vote as administrators because you know who the art is from at time of voting (and their averages).
Lastly: I am still waiting to hear the answer to "How do you know who voted what on your artwork?" I've heard complaints that people know what someone voted... I do not see how.
Comments: 239
Contest Entries: 111
Laredog "Gone Fishing"

AzureSky
Independents
3/17/2012 11:49:07 PM


Status: Commander in Chief

On 3/17/2012 8:26:59 PM, Laredog said:
I want to thank NewsMaster for the input, since I now have a better understanding on how the Karma system works. AND, I see how it IS important in some fashion. The example above is perfect. The ring was a joke, compared to other works, ONLY because it was all photo and a tiny add on chop wise. So basic to add a PI sumbol to a black center. In NO WAY a nine! All of us nubile young things need to remember.. we are not voting on a pretty picture here. I have taken more time to examine the chops at high res and trying my best to "guess" a good Average number for each. That may hurt the pros a little, because I doubt I'll EVER give out a 10.
My opinion: It is easier to vote as administrators because you know who the art is from at time of voting (and their averages).
Lastly: I am still waiting to hear the answer to "How do you know who voted what on your artwork?" I've heard complaints that people know what someone voted... I do not see how.



You can look at who voted, then check your score. then go through the vote history, by doing that you may be able to find out.

Comments: 12495
Contest Entries: 1352
Mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself, but talent instantly recognizes genius. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

AzureSky
Independents
3/17/2012 11:52:15 PM


Status: Commander in Chief

On 3/17/2012 7:35:47 PM, NewsMaster said:

On 3/17/2012 6:58:45 PM, AzureSky said:
Well I thought I voted nicely in the Pi contest, particularly on the top 5. Obviously not, as I lost Karma yet again.

Makes me wonder why I bother. This system is far to complicated for me.

I find it all too worrying, so will desist for a while until I know more about how to vote.



I have just checked your voting and you had great votes on all entries, except one vote where you deviate hugely from the average.
This chop finished with a weighted average score of 5.3, but you gave it a 9. That's a huge vote difference. If you voted it a 7 or even 8, you would not lose karma.

[Edited by User on 3/17/2012 7:34:20 PM]



That must have been a mistake. I would only give a 9 to a brilliant chop. Oh well that will teach me lol!

I just spent hours doing a chop for the green contest which closed 7 hours ago. I must be losing my marbles.

Comments: 12495
Contest Entries: 1352
Mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself, but talent instantly recognizes genius. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

AzureSky
Independents
3/17/2012 11:57:38 PM


Status: Commander in Chief

On 3/17/2012 7:35:47 PM, NewsMaster said:

On 3/17/2012 6:58:45 PM, AzureSky said:
Well I thought I voted nicely in the Pi contest, particularly on the top 5. Obviously not, as I lost Karma yet again.

Makes me wonder why I bother. This system is far to complicated for me.

I find it all too worrying, so will desist for a while until I know more about how to vote.



I have just checked your voting and you had great votes on all entries, except one vote where you deviate hugely from the average.
This chop finished with a weighted average score of 5.3, but you gave it a 9. That's a huge vote difference. If you voted it a 7 or even 8, you would not lose karma.

[Edited by User on 3/17/2012 7:34:20 PM]



I just checked, I can't think what possessed me to give that one a 9. Definitely a silly mistake.
Comments: 12495
Contest Entries: 1352
Mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself, but talent instantly recognizes genius. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

macwithfries
Independents
3/18/2012 2:17:37 AM


Status: Commander in Chief

On 3/17/2012 8:26:59 PM, Laredog said:

My opinion: It is easier to vote as administrators because you know who the art is from at time of voting (and their averages).
Lastly: I am still waiting to hear the answer to "How do you know who voted what on your artwork?" I've heard complaints that people know what someone voted... I do not see how.



1/ Only admins (jurors can't) can see who owns what chop. In saying that, it is possible to vote without seeing that info, which is what I do and I'm sure what the other admins do also.
It's a necessity that admins can see the extra info so we can "fix things" sometimes.....and if we have to fix something then we "have to look"

2/ Nobody, including the admins, can see the averages during the voting as the average that affects karma is only calculated at the end of the contest.

3/ The only people at the site who can see "who voted what" on contest entries are the admins (again, not jurors, and not members). Others may "think" they can see who voted what, basically by "guessing" when looking at the vote they got, but it's been my experience that these "guesses" are usually wrong. So no, people can't see who gives what vote to whom.

Just adding, because I want to be totally transparent here, that when I wasn't an admin, I used to "think" I had a fair idea who voted what.....but once I became an admin, I realized that I had been mistaken

Incidentally, I lost karma in the clock contest

At the end of the day, we have a lot of people voting on the entries and their votes vary according to how each individual sees a chop. And even sometimes people lose karma by making a boo boo, as Azure has pointed out above.


As others have said, if you lose karma, go back through a contest and try and pinpoint where a vote of yours has missed the mark according to the majority average vote. And then just tailor your voting in the future with any knowledge you gain from that.

Sure, on occasion you will be off the mark sometimes, happens to everyone. And it may not be because you were wrong. You may have your own reasons that are valid.....you might see something that others have missed. But again, that's just something that can happen on occasion.

Trust me, trying not to get fixated with the voting is a good thing. Because it's been my experience that when people do that, they spend more time looking at that, and less time trying to improve their chopping.

Not everyone can win, and not everyone will start churning out trophy winning entries straight away. Some people do, due to prior experience or talent etc, but usually, people playing here all have to start somewhere.....and work their way to the trophy section.

For example, there's a fella at the top of the hall of fame at the moment.....who got there by doing a zillion chops and gradually perfecting his skills over time. Sure, he has some natural talent too, but hey, some of his early chops were like this one (he will kill me probably for putting that in, but I've always thought it was cute..lol)

Yeh, sometimes there's a contest here and there where you may have a chop in a contest and it doesn't do as well as you had hoped. That could be for a lot of different reasons. But I think overall, entries end up where they are supposed to be at the end of a contest.

I've even see top choppers who get many trophies, go through lil "flat spells"....and because they are used to winning, all of a sudden think that there's some grand conspiracy that they haven't nabbed a trophy recently. And they can get sucked into the "voting paranoia vortex" instead of looking at their chops, and the ones that beat them and saying "hmmm, maybe that one wasn't as good as I usually do".

Both voters and choppers are only human.....but try not to spend too much time trying to pull apart the mechanics of the contests and just have fun and try to improve and learn from others etc...both when it comes to chopping and voting.

Just my two cents....


[Edited by User on 3/18/2012 3:32:59 AM]
Comments: 5844
Contest Entries: 230

AzureSky
Independents
3/18/2012 8:23:13 AM


Status: Commander in Chief
I voted on the green contest, just hope I got it right this time. Just wondering if we lost credits for losing karma or no votes?

In a small contest, I would imagine by looking at each average and the individual votes on each chop, you could work out roughly who gave you a low vote, if they only gave that score to one chop.

Otherwise it would be a waste of time and effort. In any case it would not achieve anything so why waste the time.
Comments: 12495
Contest Entries: 1352
Mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself, but talent instantly recognizes genius. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

macwithfries
Independents
3/18/2012 8:33:00 AM


Status: Commander in Chief

On 3/18/2012 8:23:13 AM, AzureSky said:
I voted on the green contest, just hope I got it right this time. Just wondering if we lost credits for losing karma or no votes?



No you don't lose credits for losing karma or doing no votes.

We do however go around to your house and hit you about the head with a big stick for half an hour

Comments: 5844
Contest Entries: 230

kennyb
Independents
3/18/2012 10:37:54 AM


Status: Wal Mart Greeter
I can't seem to get my Karma off of 1. At first when I didn't know the "Karma rules" I voted my conscience...I am sure that hurt me looking back. Now in general I don't vote much of anything less than a 5 and generally nothing higher than maybe a 9...Karma is still at 1.

I think that there should be another system for amount of influence you have in voting...this Karma thing seems confusing and it sways people to not vote what the piece/entry really deserves, whether it deserves a one or a ten, for fear of being penalized.

A more fair system would be how many entries you have submitted, maybe how many you have won and something that ties to how often you vote and how many times you have voted. Maybe even how active you are in the community (posted Photoshop techniques) helping other out, etc.

Trying to predict how everyone will vote on any given entry is ludicrous… Art is subjective as are likes and dislikes. You may like Picasso I may hate him…are either of us more right…just because I don’t like Picasso should I be penalized for that? I like Mozart you hate him…should you be penalized…I would argue NO…it is all about taste… We can’t and shouldn’t even try to regulate that.

That is my opinion/thoughts.

[Edited by User on 3/18/2012 10:35:59 AM]

[Edited by User on 3/18/2012 10:37:47 AM]
Comments: 74
Contest Entries: 11

Kellie
Independents
3/18/2012 12:01:15 PM
Status: Commander in Chief

On 3/18/2012 8:33:00 AM, macwithfries said:

On 3/18/2012 8:23:13 AM, AzureSky said:
I voted on the green contest, just hope I got it right this time. Just wondering if we lost credits for losing karma or no votes?



No you don't lose credits for losing karma or doing no votes.

We do however go around to your house and hit you about the head with a big stick for half an hour



HA!

Comments: 16532
Contest Entries: 291

AzureSky
Independents
3/18/2012 12:51:39 PM


Status: Commander in Chief

On 3/18/2012 12:01:15 PM, Kellie said:

On 3/18/2012 8:33:00 AM, macwithfries said:

On 3/18/2012 8:23:13 AM, AzureSky said:
I voted on the green contest, just hope I got it right this time. Just wondering if we lost credits for losing karma or no votes?



No you don't lose credits for losing karma or doing no votes.

We do however go around to your house and hit you about the head with a big stick for half an hour



HA!





Mac and Kellie rolling on the floor with laughter!!! Will you bring Skippy along with you?
Comments: 12495
Contest Entries: 1352
Mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself, but talent instantly recognizes genius. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

NewsMaster
Independents
3/19/2012 2:47:24 PM


Status: Commander in Chief

On 3/18/2012 10:37:54 AM, kennyb said:
I think that there should be another system for amount of influence you have in voting...this Karma thing seems confusing and it sways people to not vote what the piece/entry really deserves, whether it deserves a one or a ten, for fear of being penalized.
A more fair system would be how many entries you have submitted, maybe how many you have won and something that ties to how often you vote and how many times you have voted.


We already have it in the karma system:
Members with no trophies can get a maximum karma of 100.
Members with trophies can get a maximum karma of 200.



Trying to predict how everyone will vote on any given entry is ludicrous… Art is subjective as are likes and dislikes. You may like Picasso I may hate him…are either of us more right…just because I don’t like Picasso should I be penalized for that? I like Mozart you hate him…should you be penalized…I would argue NO…it is all about taste… We can’t and shouldn’t even try to regulate that.



You have a good point, however you basically suggest that (given a certain record of chops for voters) all the votes should be accepted with equal weights. This really creates an incentive for strategic voting - to lowball great entries in order to push own entries up, and bear no consequences because an excuse will always be "I just don't like this chop, nothing wrong with that". Imagine working hard on a chop only to see it sink in rankings by another great chopper who is "not so great voter" because he's competing with you in the same contest. Our system may be conservative but it does protect from strategic voting.

[Edited by User on 3/19/2012 4:04:28 PM]
Comments: 99153
Contest Entries: 14
Out of my mind. Back in five minutes.

kennyb
Independents
3/20/2012 8:20:14 AM


Status: Wal Mart Greeter
Good to know about the trophies/no trophies thing, thanks.

I think either system can lead to incentive or strategic voting. What I mean by that is let's say that you and I are friends and you have "AWESOME KARMA"...I enter a piece/chop into one of the contests and I let you know that I did and which one it is (phone call, e-mail, etc)...you give me a good vote because I am your friend. Now because your Karma is so high, it is as though a bunch of people voted my piece/chop awesome...which if repeated with a couple of people with good karma totally shifts the balance of the overall how the crowd voted, which then in turn affects the overall karma of everyone that voted.

I also think that how many hours you spend on a chop is only relative to the skill level of the one chopping...that is hard to measure...a beginner/amateur will take hours and maybe only get a moderately good piece (because of their skill/experience) while someone that has been doing this a while can spend much less time. Does that mean that the beginner gets more credit because they are a beginner? Who ends up with the best piece (creativity, execution, sticking to the rules of the assignment/competition) should win.

We were all beginners at some point and the way you win is work hard, get lucky and/or learn from the more experienced people.
Comments: 74
Contest Entries: 11

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