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AzureSky
2/16/2012 6:01:27 PM


Status: Commander in Chief
Voting karma

Please can somebody tell me why I have no vote star for the Whitney contest? My average was between the highest an lowest voters who actually got stars. ie 6.24 to 7.03.

Mine was 6.968. Was I too generous? I gave out 2 x 10's. After studying the results, mine don't vary much from the people who kept their karma.

I try to be fair and avoid giving 4's despite the temptation to do so.
Comments: 12495
Contest Entries: 1352
Mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself, but talent instantly recognizes genius.
Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
IcyAllEyeCan
Independents
2/17/2012 3:23:21 AM


Status: Commander in Chief
Dude, I've given up on the karma issue. I went up to 17, then down to 8, now down to 1, despite being kinder. There's nothing I can do if honesty doesn't work.

There's no way to go with the pack when the pack changes, right?
Comments: 1714
Contest Entries: 614
~Icyhttp://phorho.blogspot.com

AzureSky
Independents
2/17/2012 10:34:24 AM


Status: Commander in Chief

On 2/17/2012 3:23:21 AM, IcyAllEyeCan said:
Dude, I've given up on the karma issue. I went up to 17, then down to 8, now down to 1, despite being kinder. There's nothing I can do if honesty doesn't work.

There's no way to go with the pack when the pack changes, right?



What bugs me about that particular vote history, is that I can see no significant difference between my votes and the others.

I have been resisting the temptation to give 3's or 4's to entries that are very clearly below the standard of a 5 or 6. ie pixelated, really obvious color differences on head/face transplants. Stretched mishapen faces, short foreheads etc.

You are right about the pack changing, things can be popular one week but not the next. I voted on the Valentine contest I thought there was a rather poor turnout.

Only one image really grabbed me. My own isn't what I wanted it to be as I spent too much time fiddling around with Topaz.

Comments: 12495
Contest Entries: 1352
Mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself, but talent instantly recognizes genius. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

NewsMaster
Independents
2/17/2012 12:50:15 PM


Status: Commander in Chief
Azure, you look at the wrong "averages". What you mentioned is your average vote in the contest, but the karma karma system works with each particular entry - it looks how your personal vote deviates from the average weighted vote of other voters for the same entry.

So without looking at what votes were cast for what chops, there's no way to tell whether or not you are going to gain or lose karma.

A vote of 7 can be a bad vote for a chop that averages 9.5
and a vote of 4 can be a good vote for a chop that averages 4.5.
What matters is how your personal vote deviates from the average weighted vote of other voters for the same entry. You karma losses and gains for all particular entries in the contest are added up and you have your total karma change for this contest.

karma system is more sensitive to the entries which finish in the top 4 (when contest ends). Meaning that if you vote badly for any of the top 4 entries, you will lose karma in this contest, even if even you vote nicely for the rest of the entries.

[Edited by User on 2/17/2012 12:48:49 PM]
Comments: 99153
Contest Entries: 14
Out of my mind. Back in five minutes.

AzureSky
Independents
2/17/2012 2:50:24 PM


Status: Commander in Chief

On 2/17/2012 12:50:15 PM, NewsMaster said:
Azure, you look at the wrong "averages". What you mentioned is your average vote in the contest, but the karma karma system works with each particular entry - it looks how your personal vote deviates from the average weighted vote of other voters for the same entry.

So without looking at what votes were cast for what chops, there's no way to tell whether or not you are going to gain or lose karma.

A vote of 7 can be a bad vote for a chop that averages 9.5
and a vote of 4 can be a good vote for a chop that averages 4.5.
What matters is how your personal vote deviates from the average weighted vote of other voters for the same entry. You karma losses and gains for all particular entries in the contest are added up and you have your total karma change for this contest.

karma system is more sensitive to the entries which finish in the top 4 (when contest ends). Meaning that if you vote badly for any of the top 4 entries, you will lose karma in this contest, even if even you vote nicely for the rest of the entries.

[Edited by User on 2/17/2012 12:48:49 PM]



Sigh I had better get out my calculator. so, if an entry gets an average of 9 I haveto vote 9 and so on.

Comments: 12495
Contest Entries: 1352
Mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself, but talent instantly recognizes genius. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

NewsMaster
Independents
2/17/2012 3:01:36 PM


Status: Commander in Chief
If the entry averages a 7 the good vote range is 6, 7, and 8

[Edited by User on 2/17/2012 2:59:48 PM]
Comments: 99153
Contest Entries: 14
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Qtrmoonshop
Independents
2/17/2012 3:04:50 PM


Status: Commander in Chief
I inquired early on when I began chopping here as to why my karma wasn't changing, and once explained to me, as Newsy has just done, I made a snapshot copy of the FN 1-10 guidelines for voting, and I display them on my screen while voting and refer to them as I am placing each vote. Since I began this practice, I've managed to keep my karma at 200, for the most part, since. Just thought I'd pass that along in hopes that it may help.
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All that matters now, has just begun ...

AzureSky
Independents
2/17/2012 7:05:45 PM


Status: Commander in Chief

On 2/17/2012 3:04:50 PM, qtrmoonshop said:
I inquired early on when I began chopping here as to why my karma wasn't changing, and once explained to me, as Newsy has just done, I made a snapshot copy of the FN 1-10 guidelines for voting, and I display them on my screen while voting and refer to them as I am placing each vote. Since I began this practice, I've managed to keep my karma at 200, for the most part, since. Just thought I'd pass that along in hopes that it may help.



That set of guidelines isn't there any more. I did have them but lost them when my computer had to be reformatted. I still use them from memory but they don't seem to apply now.
I half expected to lose some karma on the Valentine contest as I found some entries incomprehensible.
It seems very much hit and miss with me. I just felt I voted fairly on the Whitney contest and shouldn't have lost Karma.

Comments: 12495
Contest Entries: 1352
Mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself, but talent instantly recognizes genius. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

AzureSky
Independents
2/17/2012 7:10:04 PM


Status: Commander in Chief
Seems you need to be psychic to get any karma. I am feeling a bit disgruntled about it because I take my time studying the images, thinking up captions and comments.
Some days the results really surprise me, others they don't. I gave the winner of the Valentine Contest 10 so I was right about that.
Comments: 12495
Contest Entries: 1352
Mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself, but talent instantly recognizes genius. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

Qtrmoonshop
Independents
2/17/2012 7:20:25 PM


Status: Commander in Chief

On 2/17/2012 7:05:45 PM, AzureSky said:

On 2/17/2012 3:04:50 PM, qtrmoonshop said:
I inquired early on when I began chopping here as to why my karma wasn't changing, and once explained to me, as Newsy has just done, I made a snapshot copy of the FN 1-10 guidelines for voting, and I display them on my screen while voting and refer to them as I am placing each vote. Since I began this practice, I've managed to keep my karma at 200, for the most part, since. Just thought I'd pass that along in hopes that it may help.



That set of guidelines isn't there any more. I did have them but lost them when my computer had to be reformatted. I still use them from memory but they don't seem to apply now.
I half expected to lose some karma on the Valentine contest as I found some entries incomprehensible.
It seems very much hit and miss with me. I just felt I voted fairly on the Whitney contest and shouldn't have lost Karma.




The set of rules for RATING ENTRIES that I'm referring to, is on the help page under the heading "RATING ENTRIES". I have attached them below* (Note that these rules are mandatory):

*What guidelines should I take into account when rating an entry?
Please note that the following guidelines are mandatory.

RATING ENTRIES
Using the available scale of 1 - 10 (one being the lowest and 10 being the highest):

1. Before you rate any entry a 1, you should really flag it and not waste time voting it as a 1. If it's so bad as to deserve a 1, it shouldn't be on Freaking News. We don't need to list examples. You'll know them when you see them.

2. Any entry that is horrible. It should also be flagged.

EXAMPLE: Photoshop - Brutal blending and jagged layer edges.

3. An entry that is below average. Definitely needs that extra hour of work or thought. Easy things have been ignored.

4. An entry that could have been good, but is missing that extra 15 minutes of work or thought behind it.

5. It's average. Not great, not bad.

6. It's better than average.

7. It's much better than average. Great idea and execution.

8. Terrific idea and terrific execution makes this entry more than "just being great".

9. This is almost perfect and looks like professionally done image you'd see in magazines and media.

10. This is professionally done and is PERFECT in every possible way. There is not a single flaw in the image and the idea behind it is brilliant. This is one of the most amazing entries I have ever seen on the site.

Comments: 2855
Contest Entries: 258
All that matters now, has just begun ...

AzureSky
Independents
2/18/2012 4:00:56 AM


Status: Commander in Chief

On 2/17/2012 7:20:25 PM, qtrmoonshop said:

On 2/17/2012 7:05:45 PM, AzureSky said:

On 2/17/2012 3:04:50 PM, qtrmoonshop said:
I inquired early on when I began chopping here as to why my karma wasn't changing, and once explained to me, as Newsy has just done, I made a snapshot copy of the FN 1-10 guidelines for voting, and I display them on my screen while voting and refer to them as I am placing each vote. Since I began this practice, I've managed to keep my karma at 200, for the most part, since. Just thought I'd pass that along in hopes that it may help.



That set of guidelines isn't there any more. I did have them but lost them when my computer had to be reformatted. I still use them from memory but they don't seem to apply now.
I half expected to lose some karma on the Valentine contest as I found some entries incomprehensible.
It seems very much hit and miss with me. I just felt I voted fairly on the Whitney contest and shouldn't have lost Karma.




The set of rules for RATING ENTRIES that I'm referring to, is on the help page under the heading "RATING ENTRIES". I have attached them below* (Note that these rules are mandatory):

*What guidelines should I take into account when rating an entry?
Please note that the following guidelines are mandatory.

RATING ENTRIES
Using the available scale of 1 - 10 (one being the lowest and 10 being the highest):

1. Before you rate any entry a 1, you should really flag it and not waste time voting it as a 1. If it's so bad as to deserve a 1, it shouldn't be on Freaking News. We don't need to list examples. You'll know them when you see them.

2. Any entry that is horrible. It should also be flagged.

EXAMPLE: Photoshop - Brutal blending and jagged layer edges.

3. An entry that is below average. Definitely needs that extra hour of work or thought. Easy things have been ignored.

4. An entry that could have been good, but is missing that extra 15 minutes of work or thought behind it.

5. It's average. Not great, not bad.

6. It's better than average.

7. It's much better than average. Great idea and execution.

8. Terrific idea and terrific execution makes this entry more than "just being great".

9. This is almost perfect and looks like professionally done image you'd see in magazines and media.

10. This is professionally done and is PERFECT in every possible way. There is not a single flaw in the image and the idea behind it is brilliant. This is one of the most amazing entries I have ever seen on the site.




Thank you very much qtrmoon those are the guidelines I have been trying to find those but couldn't see them. I better get some new specs lol!

I hope other people will find these helpful.

Love

Christine
Comments: 12495
Contest Entries: 1352
Mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself, but talent instantly recognizes genius. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

IcyAllEyeCan
Independents
2/21/2012 9:22:07 PM


Status: Commander in Chief
Yeah, those are the guidelines I use. So obviously it depends on who is voting. If a bunch of people are voting who don't know how to assess what they're seeing and give a chop between 4 and 6, when it really deserves an 8 -- it's happened -- then little old me, giving it an 8 loses karma.

It seems that unless I can guess how the crowd will go, I can't get good karma. And that's not honest voting, that's going with the majority. To use an analogy, TITANIC was a very successful movie -- lots of ticket sales. IMO, it sucked. (And not to confuse my analogy, but if it was a chop, I'd give it a 10. It was perfectly made, it just sucked.)

I think there needs to be a "test 10" set up. A "what would you rate this" and then once you choose, it tells you how far off you are and why it should get XX vote. Then not only can I learn, but everyone can see what how the standards as written in words in the guidelines, apply in practical use.

Perhaps some of the long-time players here could submit some chops they never put in contests so no one can research and find out how they did. Those chops could be used in the tutorial.
Comments: 1714
Contest Entries: 614
~Icyhttp://phorho.blogspot.com

NewsMaster
Independents
2/22/2012 7:16:49 AM


Status: Commander in Chief
You may call it "voting with the crowd", but this is called "majority voting" rule and is used in many decision making policies, evaluations, and also in politics.

If we elaborate on your movie analogy, our karma system is similar to IMDB ratings. Surely you can contest and say that any highly ranked movie still sucks and deserves a low rate in your opinion, but to base movie rankings on just an opinion of one individual (and not the crowd) brings far more pitfalls and questions than the generally accepted "majority voting".

[Edited by User on 2/22/2012 7:19:36 AM]
Comments: 99153
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NewsMaster
Independents
2/22/2012 7:20:49 AM


Status: Commander in Chief

On 2/21/2012 9:22:07 PM, IcyAllEyeCan said:
I think there needs to be a "test 10" set up. A "what would you rate this" and then once you choose, it tells you how far off you are and why it should get XX vote. Then not only can I learn, but everyone can see what how the standards as written in words in the guidelines, apply in practical use.

There's no way it can be done during the voting process because as the votes come in the final average score for the entry in question is not known yet. So only after all the votes are cast, the entry's average score is determined and the individual deviations are calculated.
We always recommend to users who wish to increase their karma to go through at least top 10 entries in a contest and compare their average scores with the votes they gave on these entries. It's easy to see how far they were off then.

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NewsMaster
Independents
2/22/2012 10:46:05 AM


Status: Commander in Chief
Azure, the voting guidelines (that qtrmoonshop nicely reposted) can be reached any time while you vote - just click the link "Vote Scale" under the voting radio buttons 1,2,...9,10.
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IcyAllEyeCan
Independents
2/22/2012 4:01:14 PM


Status: Commander in Chief
Oh, I know majority rules. My analogy wasn't clear because Titanic was such a well made movie, even if I hated it. The part I failed to express is that I feel it did well because it appealed to the heart rather than the brain. (And that is ONLY my opinion and has no other value.)

And in these contests, if something appeals to a lot of people's hearts, though humor, or a certain popular style (caricatures for example) then people who don't feel that humor or award points for that style will be off from the majority.

Me, trying to be "nice" doesn't help, because that has to be done in all cases.

But you know, as I said above, this dawg is done chasing kar-ma. I'm okay with one vote -- I can't ruin it for anyone and I can't help anyone, but I can still participate and not torture myself because I don't think like everyone else. And since I'm being honest and not trying to manipulate things (and can't), then I don't feel bad about that. Thank goodness!
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Contest Entries: 614
~Icyhttp://phorho.blogspot.com

Laredog
Independents
2/24/2012 10:32:49 PM


Status: Speech Writer
Being a Noob, I know nothing about this Karma stuff... and have still struggled with voting. I started off being generous with the numbers, then read the scale (above) and started voting a close to that scale as possible. Then I found if I even vote, my scores seems to suffer.
I KNOW I'm NOT skilled as far as Photoshop is concerned. I'm still learning every day. Which is a second topic (Sunshine) send me links to help) nobody else does...
But that's another topic. You have to vote ... right? If you vote on a contest you entered, since you can't vote for yourself... are you hurting your own chances by scoring others high?
Comments: 239
Contest Entries: 111
Laredog "Gone Fishing"

AzureSky
Independents
2/25/2012 12:53:09 AM


Status: Commander in Chief

On 2/24/2012 10:32:49 PM, Laredog said:
Being a Noob, I know nothing about this Karma stuff... and have still struggled with voting. I started off being generous with the numbers, then read the scale (above) and started voting a close to that scale as possible. Then I found if I even vote, my scores seems to suffer.
I KNOW I'm NOT skilled as far as Photoshop is concerned. I'm still learning every day. Which is a second topic (Sunshine) send me links to help) nobody else does...
But that's another topic. You have to vote ... right? If you vote on a contest you entered, since you can't vote for yourself... are you hurting your own chances by scoring others high?



No Laredog you aren't you would need very high karma to make even a tiny difference.
I must admit I struggle with Karma. I often see entries that I feel should be in the top 10 end up way down and poor ones higher up than they deserve to be.
If anything at all influences voting and the outcome, in my opinion, it would be the comments. Experienced Photoshoppers are confident enough to make their own decisions but I am not so sure about the inexperienced ones.

Comments: 12495
Contest Entries: 1352
Mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself, but talent instantly recognizes genius. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle

Laredog
Independents
2/25/2012 5:58:34 PM


Status: Speech Writer

On 2/25/2012 12:53:09 AM, AzureSky said:

On 2/24/2012 10:32:49 PM, Laredog said:
Being a Noob, I know nothing about this Karma stuff... and have still struggled with voting. I started off being generous with the numbers, then read the scale (above) and started voting a close to that scale as possible. Then I found if I even vote, my scores seems to suffer.
I KNOW I'm NOT skilled as far as Photoshop is concerned. I'm still learning every day. Which is a second topic (Sunshine) send me links to help) nobody else does...
But that's another topic. You have to vote ... right? If you vote on a contest you entered, since you can't vote for yourself... are you hurting your own chances by scoring others high?




No Laredog you aren't you would need very high karma to make even a tiny difference.
I must admit I struggle with Karma. I often see entries that I feel should be in the top 10 end up way down and poor ones higher up than they deserve to be.
If anything at all influences voting and the outcome, in my opinion, it would be the comments. Experienced Photoshoppers are confident enough to make their own decisions but I am not so sure about the inexperienced ones.




I personally vote higher for really clean works that are complex yet not cluttered AND have a story to tell (on topic). Since all Noob's only get Karma 1... it really doesn't matter how I vote. I did my best work so far in the Oscar contest but fell dramatically in stats in last minutes. So apparently, that's when the big Karma guns come out to select a winner. It's all good. But I don't like having those 3 "No Vote" tags. Now I know to at least cast a few each contest I'm entered in.
Comments: 239
Contest Entries: 111
Laredog "Gone Fishing"

Kellie
Independents
2/25/2012 6:06:07 PM
Status: Commander in Chief
"It's all good. But I don't like having those 3 "No Vote" tags. Now I know to at least cast a few each contest I'm entered in."

This will still not help your Karma build & you will still receive a no vote. You need to vote on every entry in the contest.

[Edited by User on 2/25/2012 6:04:12 PM]
Comments: 16532
Contest Entries: 291

NewsMaster
Independents
2/25/2012 6:15:45 PM


Status: Commander in Chief
Kell, as per last edit of the code (that deals with no-votes), a no- vote is actually given only when no votes are cast at all by a member who entered a contest.

Laredog: If you don;t vote on all the entries in a contest (except your own ones of course which is technically impossible) then you can't gain any karma after that contest ends. So if you want to grow your voting karma, it's better to vote on all entries in a contest.
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